Talking Hands on the Panerai Luminor Marina

Great watches, not a fan.

Totally interested in the line. . . but how could anyone decide on a specific model?

PAM 023 – Luminor GMT

PAM 024 – Luminor Submersible
PAM 025 – Luminor Submersible
PAM 027 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 028 – Luminor Power Reserve PVD
PAM 029 – Luminor GMT
PAM 048 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 049 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 050 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 051 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 057 – Luminor Power Reserve Titanium
PAM 062 – Radiomir White Gold
PAM 063 – Luminor GMT
PAM 069 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 070 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 072 – Luminor Chrono
PAM 074 – Luminor Chrono
PAM 086 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 087 – Luminor Submersible 1000m
PAM 088 – Luminor GMT
PAM 089 – Luminor GMT Titanium
PAM 090 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 091 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 093 – Luminor Power Reserve Titanium
PAM 098 – Radiomir GMT Alarm
PAM 103 – Radiomir Pink Gold
PAM 104 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 106 – Luminor Submersible
PAM 119 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 120 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 121 – Luminor Chrono
PAM 122 – Luminor Chrono
PAM 123 – Luminor Power Reserve Destro
PAM 124 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 125 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 126 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 132 – Luminor Chrono Flyback
PAM 140 – Luminor Marina Automatic Gold
PAM 141 – Radiomir
PAM 159 – Luminor GMT
PAM 160 – Luminor GMT
PAM 161 – Luminor GMT Titanium
PAM 162 – Luminor Chrono
PAM 164 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 165 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 170 – Luminor Submersible
PAM 171 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 180 – Luminor Marina Automatic W.Gold
PAM 184 – Radiomir GMT
PAM 185 – Radiomir GMT
PAM 186 – Luminor Arktos GMT
PAM 188 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 196 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 209 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 212 – Luminor 1950 Flyback
PAM 213 – Luminor 1950 Rattrapante
PAM 214 – Radiomir Rattrapante
PAM 220 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 221 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 236 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 238 – Radiomir GMT Alarm
PAM 240 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 241 – Luminor Power Reserve
PAM 242 – Radiomir GMT
PAM 243 – Luminor 1950 Submersible
PAM 244 – Luminor GMT
PAM 250 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 251 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 270 – Luminor 1950 10 Days GMT
PAM 279 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 282 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 283 – Luminor Marina Automatic Titanium
PAM 287 – Radiomir Black Seal
PAM 288 – Radiomir Chronograph
PAM 296 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 297 – Luminor GMT
PAM 298 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 299 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 301 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 305 – Luminor 1950 Submersible 3 Days
PAM 310 – Luminor Chronograph
PAM 312 – Luminor 1950 3 Days Automatic
PAM 320 – Luminor 1950 3 Days GMT Automatic
PAM 321 – Luminor 1950 3 Days GMT Power Reserve
PAM 323 – Radiomir 10 Days GMT
PAM 326 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 327 – Luminor Chrono Daylight
PAM 328 – Luminor 1950 3 Days Automatic
PAM 329 – Luminor 1950 3 Days GMT Automatic
PAM 333 – Luminor Marina Automatic
PAM 335 – Luminor 1950 10 Days GMT Ceramic
PAM 347 – Luminor 3 Days GMT Power Reserve
PAM 351 – Luminor 1950 Marina 3 Days Automatic
PAM 352 – Luminor 1950 Marina
PAM 355 – Radiomir GMT Alarm
PAM 359 – Luminor Marina 1950 3 Days Automatic
PAM 386 – Luminor Marina 1950 3 Days Automatic

Only interested in the Luminor Submersible line

Saw the 320 live today. Beautiful watch. Almost knocked me off my Rolex quest. Seems larger although it isn't. Not sure I can wear a watch that large/thick anymore. Funny how things change.

The PAM 372, forget about everything else:

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Tried a 372 on the other day, way too big for a smaller wrist....looked silly.....it looks much larger than my 312 on the wrist....

jaw wrote:Saw the 320 live today. Beautiful watch. Almost knocked me off my Rolex quest. Seems larger although it isn't. Not sure I can wear a watch that large/thick anymore. Funny how things change.

I had a 320 and then a Rad 287. They were just too big for me, though I could wear them and they din't hang over my wrist, they looked like to me like I was wearing sauce pans. So I settled on a Pam50, but couldn't get past the baby sister image. So off it went. Honestly, I'm not a big Panerai fan. Have you spent any time on Paneristi? They regularly schedule GTGs which I'm convinced conclude with a circle jerk.

Don Barzini wrote:

Have you spent any time on Paneristi? They regularly schedule GTGs which I'm convinced conclude with a circle jerk.

iwasbanned wrote:The PAM 372, forget about everything else:

Nah.....

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I like the look of them but i could,nt bring myself to spent 5 grand plus on one when i know it has a £40 movement in it

craig pb wrote:I like the look of them but i could,nt bring myself to spent 5 grand plus on one when i know it has a £40 movement in it

You're so confused- the only 40 pound movement you've ever had is the one you dropped in the crapper this morning. You should be so fuckin lucky there clueless.

I currently have a woody for a 233 ^ [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

or a 275 v
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on Louisiana nubuck alligator.

Both have incredible in house movements-

233: 21 jewels; 28,800 BPH, 8 day power reserve with linear indicator; triple barrel GMT; 247 total components.

275: 29 jewels; 28,800 BPH, 8 day power reserve with linear indicator, 3 barrel, column wheel single button chrono; 321 total components.

At 44mm they are substantial in appearance without feeling or looking like you're wearing a frisbee. Have a pal at the OP Boutique in LaJolla that lets me wear them whenever I pop in to kick the tires and they are amazingly comfortable and handsome watches.

And let's not forget when Panerai sold it's collectors the "Brooklyn Bridge":

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conjurer wrote:And let's not forget when Panerai sold it's collectors the "Brooklyn Bridge

In their entire history, one clinker...A definite low point, almost 4 years ago as I recall. The finishing was the issue in that piece and an embarrassment. Still, hardly a $63 movement (at the current exchange rate) The product henceforth has been outstanding with several movement advancements especially in the balance, shock protection and the new shielded products. The triple barrel movements are really marvels. Sounds like it's been awhile since you've kept up on 'em.

3Flushes wrote:

craig pb wrote:I like the look of them but i could,nt bring myself to spent 5 grand plus on one when i know it has a £40 movement in it

You're so confused- the only 40 pound movement you've ever had is the one you dropped in the crapper this morning. You should be so fuckin lucky there clueless.

I currently have a woody for a 233 ^ [You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

or a 275 v
[You must be registered and logged in to see this image.]

on Louisiana nubuck alligator.

Both have incredible in house movements-

233: 21 jewels; 28,800 BPH, 8 day power reserve with linear indicator; triple barrel GMT; 247 total components.

275: 29 jewels; 28,800 BPH, 8 day power reserve with linear indicator, 3 barrel, column wheel single button chrono; 321 total components.

At 44mm they are substantial in appearance without feeling or looking like you're wearing a frisbee. Have a pal at the OP Boutique in LaJolla that lets me wear them whenever I pop in to kick the tires and they are amazingly comfortable and handsome watches.

Sorry ! £50

craig pb wrote:Sorry ! £50

Since you persist in your foolishness:

150 of these watches were produced with the undecorated movements. The fact is that Panerai stepped up and replaced the movements free of charge, including shipping to and from the house for the asking, with fully decorated COSC movements. That's how a truly prominent manufacture does business. The issue price of the watch, as you stated was indeed 5 G's. If you can find them for sale in the current collectors' market, they fetch in excess of 6 G's if you can find a great deal, and generally in excess of 7. Which, is how a truly prominent manufactures' product appreciates.

3Flushes wrote:

craig pb wrote:Sorry ! £50

Since you persist in your foolishness:

150 of these watches were produced with the undecorated movements. The fact is that Panerai stepped up and replaced the movements free of charge, including shipping to and from the house for the asking, with fully decorated COSC movements. That's how a truly prominent manufacture does business. The issue price of the watch, as you stated was indeed 5 G's. If you can find them for sale in the current collectors' market, they fetch in excess of 6 G's if you can find a great deal, and generally in excess of 7. Which, is how a truly prominent manufactures' product appreciates.

A prominent manufacture wouldn't have tried to fuck over their collectors in the first place.

conjurer wrote:

3Flushes wrote:

craig pb wrote:Sorry ! £50

Since you persist in your foolishness:

150 of these watches were produced with the undecorated movements. The fact is that Panerai stepped up and replaced the movements free of charge, including shipping to and from the house for the asking, with fully decorated COSC movements. That's how a truly prominent manufacture does business. The issue price of the watch, as you stated was indeed 5 G's. If you can find them for sale in the current collectors' market, they fetch in excess of 6 G's if you can find a great deal, and generally in excess of 7. Which, is how a truly prominent manufactures' product appreciates.

A prominent manufacture wouldn't have tried to fuck over their collectors in the first place.

They made it right and the watch has appreciated give or take 40%, better than 10% a year. I don't think the 150 people who bought one are feeling fucked over. How ya doin on the appreciation of your collection, or, investments/savings/cash for that matter? Fuck man, even Porsche made the 924. Ya gonna shit all over the 911?

3Flushes wrote:

conjurer wrote:

3Flushes wrote:

craig pb wrote:Sorry ! £50

Since you persist in your foolishness:

150 of these watches were produced with the undecorated movements. The fact is that Panerai stepped up and replaced the movements free of charge, including shipping to and from the house for the asking, with fully decorated COSC movements. That's how a truly prominent manufacture does business. The issue price of the watch, as you stated was indeed 5 G's. If you can find them for sale in the current collectors' market, they fetch in excess of 6 G's if you can find a great deal, and generally in excess of 7. Which, is how a truly prominent manufactures' product appreciates.

A prominent manufacture wouldn't have tried to fuck over their collectors in the first place.

They made it right and the watch has appreciated give or take 40%, better than 10% a year. I don't think the 150 people who bought one are feeling fucked over. How ya doin on the appreciation of your collection, or, investments/savings/cash for that matter? Fuck man, even Porsche made the 924. Ya gonna shit all over the 911?

No, but I don't mind shitting all over Panerai.

None of you speak of the watch at hand, the PAM 111. The watch that sees the most light of day of any in my small collection.

Not in-house, not super-expensive, just the basic Luminor with small seconds. The movement is merely a well-finished Unitas with a swans-neck regulator added, but Panerai always used other manufactures movements anyway. They were renowned for waterproof cases and lume, not movements. They generally trusted Rolex for that.

In my opinion, it rocks.
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BigCheez wrote:None of you speak of the watch at hand, the PAM 111. The watch that sees the most light of day of any in my small collection.

Not in-house, not super-expensive, just the basic Luminor with small seconds. The movement is merely a well-finished Unitas with a swans-neck regulator added, but Panerai always used other manufactures movements anyway. They were renowned for waterproof cases and lume, not movements. They generally trusted Rolex for that.

In my opinion, it rocks.
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Your Panerai's different, Cheez. Your's is the fucking bomb, goddamn it.

Very nice Cheez, basic small seconds, very clean. The only time I have ever seen these in the wild the owner had no clue about the watch, just part of an image they are trying to portray.

BigCheez wrote:None of you speak of the watch at hand, the PAM 111. The watch that sees the most light of day of any in my small collection.

Not in-house, not super-expensive, just the basic Luminor with small seconds. The movement is merely a well-finished Unitas with a swans-neck regulator added, but Panerai always used other manufactures movements anyway. They were renowned for waterproof cases and lume, not movements. They generally trusted Rolex for that.

In my opinion, it rocks.
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That watch definitely rocks, especially the classic, super clean stuffed dial. (Looks like one of the oldies, but can't tell for sure from the pics. Not sure if they had the Unitas.) In fact, it's why I like the 233. My collecting is more centered on movements than what a watch shows to the masses, but it certainly doesn't hurt to have a handsome exterior also, to. I've liked the Luminor case and dials for a long time, but they employed, for me, what were meh movements available in other watches for considerably less money. I guess my path has left me more "cheeze whiz" than "big cheese," so I have to do the best I can for the money. They did use some great movements also, (JLC and Angelus for example) but not in anything I really liked- not crazy about the Rad cases, plus they had crown issues, the Luminors, too large- 47mm+.

Ever since they popped that 2002 movement into the Luminor case and made it more complicated, which I like, while keeping the clean appearance of your dial, I became hot for one. I really like the 8 day power reserve as I hardly ever wear the same watch more than 2 days in succession, so not having to set it every time I wear it is appealing. The three barrel in series design they developed keeps it accurate throughout the reserve based on everything I've read (although I'm still looking for a independent bench test.) The seconds reset hacking feature is cool for setting and the 28,800 BPH freq is rare in a watch with more than 46 hours reserve. The linear PR indicator had some problems which put me off, but were resolved in the j and k releases.

I think the 233 is a classic blend of the old and what's new in watchmaking. The 233 is easy to dress up or down with strap changes and is nicely sized for me at 44mm. Although I'd prefer the stuffed dial, I think they did a good job with the clean and classic layout of the comps on the current sandwiched dial. The movement represents great advances in movement making, resulting in, I believe, 3 new patents with modern additions of complications, that probably make the purists look down and spit on the ground, but, I gravitate to more complicated watches. All of it cased up in the iconic Luminor case (which in the 1950 lags a bit in WR.) Hope I can find the right deal on one soon. Viagra, Vischmagra.

First that 1950 case is a pos in terms of being historically correct, comfortable, and balanced. The vintages are all that. Its a resemblance to the vintage and a departure from the luminor to fit their overly fat movements. Here is a pic of their "innovative" new erector set movent.
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Awesome huh? Now I agree with you on the the 233 as special (dot only) as the first in house pam movement and the most reasonable application of that vomitous case. It has certainly lost some shine in the eyes of risti and collectors every year with this new direction but its still a nice watch.

The Radiomirs did not have any widespread crown issues. There were some mongrels that were dumb enough to cross thread them. Ive owned them since they came out.

A parallel rant, every notice all the super vocal cheerleaders on those P sites are always gushing over the new releases and contemporary models? If you have been paying attention over the years you will notice they wouldnt be caught dead with one, even those they somehow are selling a LNIB every now and then. They are quietly buying up all the Real PAMS, vintage, preA/V, T dials and SEs. So yall keep gushing over those pams with autos (the biggest lol of all) and those body panels they call cases they have to try and wrap around their lol in house movements

dcfis wrote:Here is a pic of their "innovative" new erector set movent.
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Awesome huh?

Yep

Apparently, like myself, a majority of watch consumers, as evidenced by steadily declining sales, were never interested in Panarei until they started revising their designs and innovated movement making with the inline 3 barrel power train. I admire how the puritanical, histrionic fans of the brand rail against change and the advance of modernity; it's too bad that the nostalgic "shine" of the reisti for, and their buying up of, all the old stuff could not insure the financial future and survival of the house. It does however insure the financial future of the collectors; typical behavior of the collectors of anything, so what. And what's too bad for them is good for fans of innovation and advancement in horology and watchmaking who are purchasing their future classics in droves.

In the face of decreasing availability of ETA and economic factors, it's awesome that there are brands who are still advancing designs and seeking perfection in mechanical timekeeping while so many are cheapening their product with lesser materials and fashionistic designs to try to stay afloat.

Parenthetically, the crown issue on the Rads was bad enough that it was revised. Damn "mongrels."

Document on the revision? Ive owned multiple from different eras, they were the SAME.

I think you are REALLY overplaying any innovation of Panerai in house movements. I see very little new. Very little. The new manual wind is a blatant fucking copy of a $100 6497 with some add on fairings and a spit polish. Add that to the extra few thousand at the counter. Now if we were talking about Seiko innovation of horology then I would be in 100% agreement.

dcfis wrote:Document on the revision? Ive owned multiple from different eras, they were the SAME.

I think you are REALLY overplaying any innovation of Panerai in house movements. I see very little new. Very little. The new manual wind is a blatant fucking copy of a $100 6497 with some add on fairings and a spit polish. Add that to the extra few thousand at the counter. Now if we were talking about Seiko innovation of horology then I would be in 100% agreement.

Spring Drive is the schiz, but we digress- (you and conjurer should move in together...)

The 6497, originally a pocket watch cranker, 16 1/2 L, is often now contained in project watches, as unmodified, it is a good, straightforward movement for beginning watchmakers and amateurs to work with. Reworked, they are excellent. The 6497 1 and 2, are single barrels, 17 jewels, 46 hours, 18,000 VPH and 17 jewels, 53 hours, 21,600 VPH respectively, (the 6497-2 was used by OP extensively, most notably, in the 111, 183, 210 and 231) and initially inspired the search for a better power delivery method as the modified PO versions could never be regulated to their satisfaction as it did not deliver perfectly even power through the entire wind despite the modified swans' neck regulator and reworked bridges. I am not aware of a PO 6497-2 modified to 8 days reserve, although, there are some asian vintage PAM knock offs marked Unitas 8 days. All movements previously manufactured by ETA and marked Unitas are now solely marked ETA.

The 2002, actually more akin to the Angelus SF240 (203) or the JLC 8 day (190, 197) which OP engineers also found dissatisfactory in power delivery over the entire reserve, includes complications strange to the 6497 like GMT, date, and visible power res indicator for example, all functions that the purist reisti consider sacrilege. (BTW, the 1950 case dates to 1953.)

The relentless search for accurate, even power delivery through the entire reserve drove the development of the 2002, and OP received a patent for the resulting solution, the 3 barrel - in series design and I believe, for the material used in the balance wheel, integral to the performance of the movement at the high freq of 28,800. The design is highly innovative as the patent(s) speak to. The seconds reset hacking device is also unique to the 2002. I hope I've improved your vision.

Re: to the Rad stem, that was per the OP boutique in LaJolla. It may be in something yet to be released, I'll try and get more info, sorry I can't be more specific.

Im sure the info will be helpful to someone. Ive been around the PAM block. Ive had them. The 1950 case used now is nowhere near the vintage cases. NOT CLOSE. Its a sorry replica with the wrong proportions. Ive had them both in hand. Pretend if you want.

Also, you seem like a good enough guy but if you are going to knowledge whip me, please let it be with that and not throwing out Rads because all the crowns break and there is a super secret la jolla crown yet to be released. Im sure PAM will change it as they change everything else but I have talked to two friends who are gray dealers and they have not heard of any problems outside the few that are gorilla'd.

The 1950 was certainly changed to accommodate the 2002- it's my case of choice in the brand which I have admittedly only become interested in recently. As I previously said, "not crazy about the Rad cases, plus they had crown issues." And they do have crown/stem issues. There are multiple threads on many fora and a cursory Google search yields 27,000+ results regarding the issue. Are your gray dealers the ones who told you the 2002 was a knockoff of the 6497 also, to? Perhaps you should get your info from A-D's or factory stores and just buy gray.

It was the official tripe directly to the big Ristis at pday. You have been to pdays right? They are quite informative on what's really going on.

I did a little more research and the material used in the balance wheel of the 2002, Glucydor, is actually beryllium bronze, an alloy of copper, beryllium and tin. It has several advantages over nickel including its' resistance to deformation due to extremes in temperature, resistance to shock and the abuse of high beat movements, and is antimagnetic, and overall, yields considerably greater consistency in regulation. Glucydor is used in the Top and Chronometre grades of ETA and in most prominent manufacturers' in house movements.